Info on choke chains
rnbe...@mindspring.com
I've always thought that you threaded one ring through the other to
form a loop then attached a leash. Simple enough. But all the chains
in pet stores around here have the same sized rings on both ends of the
chain so there's no way to pass one through the other to form the loop.
What am I missing? How does a choke chain work when both rings are
the same size?
TIA,
Neal B.
Richmond, VA
Janet B
heels and said:
>Can someone give me the 411 on choke chains?
> What am I missing? How does a choke chain work when both rings are
>the same size?
You drop the chain backwards through one ring.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Frank Morris
Run the chain down through one of the rings.
Frank X. Morris http://community.webtv.net/Sulkhalil/ChimeandFriends
Suja
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message:
> You drop the chain backwards through one ring.
And it is worth mentioning that there is a right way and a wrong way to put
it on a dog, and that there is a right way and a wrong way to use it once it
is on the dog.
Suja (who had the same question)
rnbe...@mindspring.com
with the proper tightening/release of the chain, but I'll give it a
try.
Thanks everyone.
Neal
gly...@gmail.com
> with the proper tightening/release of the chain, but I'll give it a
> try.
It's only running once, the other end is where it is attached,
as the first link flips around as you drop the chain through
the ring. I know, clear as mud. Try it, you'll see.
First search I tried got me this, makes it pretty clear:
http://www.101-dog-training-tips.com/Dog_Training_Collars/Dog_Training_collar.shtml
The way I was told, as you face your dog to put on the
collar, the loop should form a letter "P".
You may also wish to research prong collars.
HTH,
--Glenn Lyford
rnbe...@mindspring.com
something silly I wasn't getting. :)
Neal
Diana
<rnbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1139013172....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under 6 months old
and they are specifically designed for training, not everyday use. They can
cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused. I would never
put a choke chain around my dog's neck as I feel that the method is
unnecessarily harsh.
If you really feel you must use this method of training, I would strongly
urge you to do so under the supervision of an experienced trainer in a
class. If you are unsure of how to put one together, imo you are certainly
not experienced enough to use one safely or effectively.
I have taught my dog to walk nicely on leash using the stop / start method,
fine tuned so that she knows the actual position I want using a clicker.
Basically, if she pulls forward on the lead, I stand still until the lead
slackens. She has learnt that we get where we're going faster if she walks
nicely beside me.
For the very, very best heel work, its a good idea to start off leash (in a
safe area such as your yard), so that your dog learns the desired walking
position. It takes patience, but it is effective so long as you are
consistent.
Diana
--
Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk
dallygirl
teach a proper heel then get a halti or gentle leader.
i hate choke chains and i dont work with anyone who still uses them, i
use a stop start method like diane. the moment the pup pulls you stop,
the moment your dog is relaxed and stood by your side you walk on.
choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases causing more harm
than good. as has been pointed out to you there is a wrong way and
right way of putting it on, one way the chain relaxes when the dog
stops pulling (which doesnt usually happen) the other way the chain
cant relax because the weight of the chain holds it tight.
the best place for that chain is the bin!
Diana
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139050610.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> if its just a case of wanting to stop pulling and being too lazy to
> teach a proper heel then get a halti or gentle leader.
Halti's have been known to cause quite severe neck injuries in dogs too, and
most dogs hate them.
In my own experience, I have had trouble with them rubbing on my dogs nose -
the normal one cut in, the padded one seemed to be fine but started to
create a callous! I use an 'all in one gentle controller' now instead for
walking along busy roads, when my arthritis is bad or when it is icy - for
safety's sake. She is far happier about wearing and it is more effective.
Most dogs eventually learn to pull in a halti anyway (Cin did).
www.gencon-allin1.co.uk
Jeff Dege
>
> Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under 6 months old
> and they are specifically designed for training, not everyday use. They can
> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused. I would never
> put a choke chain around my dog's neck as I feel that the method is
> unnecessarily harsh.
If you're going to use leash corrections in training, use a prong collar.
They're safer.
> If you really feel you must use this method of training, I would
> strongly urge you to do so under the supervision of an experienced
> trainer in a class. If you are unsure of how to put one together, imo
> you are certainly not experienced enough to use one safely or
> effectively.
The two fundamental points regarding the use of aversives in training that
aren't often enough stressed are:
1. The dog must understand what he must do to end the aversive
stimulation, and
2. if you're training the dog, it won't take very many aversive
stimuli to change the dog's behavior.
If you're yanking on a dog's collar and he doesn't change his behavior
after a couple of tries, you're not training him, you're simply tormenting
him. And it's time to step back and think about what you're doing wrong.
--
The era of moral relativism between those who practice or condone
terrorism and those nations who stand up against it must end. Moral
relativism doesn't have a place in this discussion and debate. There's
no moral way to sympathize with grossly immoral actions. And by so doing,
and by trying to do that, unfortunately a fertile field has been created
in which terrorism has grown.
- Rudolph Giuliani addressing the United Nations, October 1, 2001.
Sionnach
<rnbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1139009783.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Can someone give me the 411 on choke chains?
>
> I've always thought that you threaded one ring through the other to
> form a loop then attached a leash.
Erm - then you thought incorrectly, and you never looked very closely at a
choke collar.
> But all the chains in pet stores around here have the same sized rings
> >on both ends of the chain
That's how plain slip/choke collars have always been made.
> How does a choke chain work when both rings are
> the same size?
Again, that's the normal way for them to be made.
Attach your leash to one end of the collar. Then, hold the unattached ring
down low in one hand, hold the other ring higher up in the other hand, and
drop the chain down through the lower ring, forming a loop; the upper ring
is not *supposed* to pass through the lower, as that would allow the collar
to slide up the leash.
Sionnach
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
as has been pointed out to you there is a wrong way and
> right way of putting it on, one way the chain relaxes when the dog
> stops pulling (which doesnt usually happen)
A choke collar, properly used, is loose on the dog's neck *except* when a
correction is given. If it's tight all the time, with the dog pulling, the
handler is using it incorrectly.
Choke collars are for TRAINING, not for everyday walking.
Robin Nuttall
> That's simply not true, Jeff.
>
> It's *much* harder for the average person to administer a proper
> collar "pop" with a prong collar than with a choke collar.
You don't pop with a prong. So there's no such thing as administering a
proper pop. And since the prong can only close a very limited amount, it
will do less throat damage in unpracticed hands than a choke.
>
> What this person should do, IMO, is find herself a good
> TRAINER(obedience training class, etc.), and use whatever tool the
> TRAINER recommends.
This I definitely agree with! But I've totally discarded any type of
choke collar from my training regimen. I do use prongs, and quite
effectively too!
Sionnach
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:
> You don't pop with a prong. So there's no such thing as administering a
> proper pop. And since the prong can only close a very limited amount, it >
> will do less throat damage in unpracticed hands than a choke.
The other major differences between chokes and prongs are that the prong
distributes pressure all the way around the dog's neck, while the choke
concentrates it in one spot, and that the prong, being wider, also cuts into
the dog's neck less. (As a side note, that's why thicker chokes are actually
more humane and safer than thin ones.)
I've told this story before, but it bears repeating:
The obedience instructor at our club (who has 35+ years of experience; she
has been working professionally with dogs all her life) used to ban prong
collars from her classes because she believed they were cruel.
What changed her mind was a seminar she attended some years back; during
the course of the seminar, the attendees did an exercise in which they
teamed up and took turns being the dog. The "handlers" used various
training collars, which were placed around the upper arms of the "dogs".
I don't know what the purpose of the exercise was - I think it was just to
demonstrate/practice proper use of the collars, but I'm not sure. What's
important to note, though, is that the participants were primarily skilled
trainers, who knew how to give "proper corrections".
In any case, the pertinent part of the story is that the next day, the
"dogs" who had been trained with flat buckle collars all had bruises on one
side of their arms, and the "dogs" trained with choke collars had bruises
all the way around their arms, with the most severe bruising being on the
side where the collar ring was.
The "dogs" trained with prong collars had no bruising whatsoever, although
IIRC a couple of them had superficial scratches.
John Wesley
di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk says...
>
> <rnbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:1139013172....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Seems like having the chain run through the ring twice would interfere
> > with the proper tightening/release of the chain, but I'll give it a
> > try.
> >
> > Thanks everyone.
> >
> > Neal
>
> Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under 6 months old
> and they are specifically designed for training, not everyday use. They can
> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused. I would never
> put a choke chain around my dog's neck as I feel that the method is
> unnecessarily harsh.
>
Putting a noose on a dog is pretty dang harsh!
jw
John Wesley
jd...@jdege.visi.com says...
>
> If you're going to use leash corrections in training, use a prong collar.
> They're safer.
>
>
>
You put one on and let me have the other end and we'll see how safe it
is.
jw
Melinda Shore
> The other major differences between chokes and prongs are that the prong
>distributes pressure all the way around the dog's neck, while the choke
>concentrates it in one spot,
I don't think that's true in general. During a pop the
movement of the chain will tend to pull the coat/skin
towards the ring if someone pops to the point where it
really tightens around the neck or if someone allows the dog
to pull on the leash, but that's different from the question
of how pressure is distributed (which tends to be fairly
evenly). I could be wrong but my understanding is that
people who handle a choke well don't ever let the collar get
really tight, even during a pop.
To me that's the key difference between a choke and a prong
as training tools. A prong is more like a head halter in
that it encourages the dog to self-correct, while a choke
really doesn't (I think we've all known dogs that will
happily pull until they gag [I have a few]). A prong collar
is a better choice for someone with poor leash handling
skills, while a choke collar really is a training tool and
not just a management tool.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.
Alison
news:1139050610.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yup:))
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/hawgood1.htm
If a dog doesnt like a halti , there's always a harness.
You have to know how to use a halti correctly as they can do
damaged too. Í use a harness on Dibby.
Clicker training is a good way to teach a dog to heel.
http://www.clickerlessons.com/index.html
http://www.clickertraining.com/training/index.htm?salesitem=default_
Alison
Alison
news:1139009783.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You don't have to use a choke chain to train your dog.
Using positive methods is effective and enjoyable for you
and your dog.
Two dog training books that are often recommend are The
Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog training by Pamela
Dennison and Dog Training , The Gentle Modern Method by
David Weston.
Alison
Melinda Shore
Alison <ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> You don't have to use a choke chain to train your dog.
>Using positive methods is effective and enjoyable for you
>and your dog.
Strictly speaking you don't *have* to train your dog at all.
But I'd definitely learn to use a choke chain well before
I'd consider using a head halter. Any device that uses the
dog's neck and head as a lever and its shoulders as a
fulcrum is completely off the table, as far as I'm
concerned. I also believe that the device is so intrusive
that it makes a poor training gizmo. Why do you think it's
a "positive" training tool? It seems to me that it's
exceptionally punishing when a correction happens.
Mark Shaw
> They can
> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused.
Cite, please.
Thanks in advance.
> If you really feel you must use this method of training, I would strongly
> urge you to do so under the supervision of an experienced trainer in a
> class. If you are unsure of how to put one together, imo you are certainly
> not experienced enough to use one safely or effectively.
Absolutely agreed.
--
Mark Shaw (And Baron) moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
=========================================================================
"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed
contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are nuts."
-John Steinbeck
Jeff Dege
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:09:00 -0600, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:23:29 +0000, Diana wrote:
>>>
>>> Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under 6 months old
>>> and they are specifically designed for training, not everyday use. They can
>>> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused. I would never
>>> put a choke chain around my dog's neck as I feel that the method is
>>> unnecessarily harsh.
>>
>>If you're going to use leash corrections in training, use a prong collar.
>>They're safer.
>
> That's simply not true, Jeff.
>
> It's *much* harder for the average person to administer a proper
> collar "pop" with a prong collar than with a choke collar.
Is it? I hadn't noticed that.
But even if true, that doesn't invalidate my point - prong collars are far
less likely to cause harm than choke collars.
> What this person should do, IMO, is find herself a good
> TRAINER(obedience training class, etc.), and use whatever tool the
> TRAINER recommends.
>
>>If you're yanking on a dog's collar
>
> <sigh>
>
> Actually, if you're yanking on the dog's collar, YOU'RE DOING IT
> WRONG!
Doesn't matter what you're doing. Yank, pop, windmill, whatever.
If it's working as a negative reinforcement, it will result in a change in
the dog's behavior fairly quickly. If it doesn't change the dog's
behavior, it's not a negative reinforcement.
It may be because you're doing it wrong, or the dog is an unusual case, or
whatever.
The purely positive crowd tells people that if a reward isn't working, try
something else. If the dog cares more about play or praise or tummy rubs
than he does about treats, use play or praise or tummy rubs.
It's a point that is at least as applicable to the use of aversives. If
you are in a situation in which you believe that using an aversive is
appropriate, and the dog isn't responding to the aversive you're using,
stop, step back, and think. Don't endlessly repeat what isn't working.
--
I wake up each morning determined to change the World...
and also to have one hell of a good time.
Sometimes that makes planning the day a little difficult.
-- E.B. White
Mark Shaw
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 20:19:52 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote:
> >Diana <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
> >> They can
> >> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused.
> >
> >Cite, please.
> Well, I wouldn't need any cites to agree that damage *could* occur
> *if* misused.
Correct. Let me rephrase: I'd like to see a cite for injuries
caused by a properly-used training collar.
I've been down this road time and time again with such claimants,
and nobody's ever been able to offer anything credible.
> That's why smart, responsible, compassionate trainers always learn how
> to use correctly *whatever* tool it is they use.
Correct. I don't use a training collar with the dog I have
now, but I certainly reserve the right to pull it out of the
drawer - for Baron or for any dog - if I think it would be
helpful.
--
Mark Shaw (And Baron) moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
=========================================================================
"Outside of a dog, a book is probably man's best
friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an incredibly
abused training tool, what with the number of handlers I see
pulling back and jerking on the leash with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Diana
"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:ds3298$etv$4...@reader2.panix.com...
> Diana <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>> They can
>> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused.
>
> Cite, please.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
I've given you this link before...
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/hawgood1.htm
Diana
Diana
"Diana" <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ds4no3$7kl$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ds3298$etv$4...@reader2.panix.com...
>> Diana <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>>> They can
>>> cause damage to your dogs vertebrae and windpipe if misused.
>>
>> Cite, please.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
http://www.k9magazinefree.com/k9_perspective/iss20p10.shtml
Robin Nuttall
> In article <ds307n$jm6$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Alison <ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>You don't have to use a choke chain to train your dog.
>>Using positive methods is effective and enjoyable for you
>>and your dog.
>
>
> Strictly speaking you don't *have* to train your dog at all.
> But I'd definitely learn to use a choke chain well before
> I'd consider using a head halter. Any device that uses the
> dog's neck and head as a lever and its shoulders as a
> fulcrum is completely off the table, as far as I'm
> concerned. I also believe that the device is so intrusive
> that it makes a poor training gizmo. Why do you think it's
> a "positive" training tool? It seems to me that it's
> exceptionally punishing when a correction happens.
Agreed. I hate them. Bad for necks and the reaction from the DOG tells
me they are positive punishers from the moment they are put on. The dogs
spend a tremendous amount of time frantically trying to remove them and
then become resigned. Body posture and attitude go south. I would never,
ever train with one.
Robin Nuttall
>
> And ditto for prong collars, haltis, flat collars, e-collars, etc.
>
> That's why smart, responsible, compassionate trainers always learn how
> to use correctly *whatever* tool it is they use.
>
Agreed. However I have to say that I have not used a choke collar in
over 6 years and have had pretty spectacular success. Let me see,
between two dogs, something like 25 titles and an additional 10-15
certifications (i.e., stuff like temperament tests, etc. that aren't
technically titles). Viva ranked in the top 20 agility dobes in the US.
Cala wins Purina ICD 60-weave.
It's a tool I have chosen to discard from my toolbox, and a tool we
don't allow in our classes. We haven't missed it. And our students? I
dunno, probably titles well in the 100s by now
dallygirl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2006 02:56:50 -0800, "dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> []
> >i hate choke chains
>
> ...because I never took the time to learn how to use one correctly.
>
> >and i dont work with anyone who still uses them
>
> ...because I only hang with fellow Shining Path luminosos.
>
> >i use a stop start method like diane. the moment the pup pulls you stop,
> >the moment your dog is relaxed and stood by your side you walk on.
>
> Note: The method you describe can work. It can also fail miserably.
>
> See: Leah Roberts.
>
> Who after two solid years of using the "make like a tree" method,
> still had a dog who pulled like a freight train. It would at times
> take her an hour to get from her car to inside her place of
> employment, PetsMart, where she worked as a ...<shudder>...trainer.
>
> >choke chains are outdated and barbaric...
>
> ...or so my fellow Shining Path luminosos tell me.
>
> >in many cases causing more harm
> >than good.
>
> They *always* cause more harm than good when they're not used
> correctly.
>
> Ditto prong collars, flat collars, e-collars, etc.
>
> >as has been pointed out to you there is a wrong way and
> >right way of putting it on,
>
> Just as there is a right way and a wrong way to *use* it!
>
> And a smart, responsible, compassionate person will always take the
> time to learn how to use a (insert tool of choice) correctly.
>
> On the other hand, ignorant bimbos like you, "dallygirl," will only
> take cheap shots at things you know absolutely nothing about.
>
> >the best place for that chain is the bin...
>
> ...so you can find it more easily, the next time you need it!
how dare you. you accuss me of taking cheap shots and then call me a
bimbo? oh please!
in no training class i ever hold or one to one training session would a
choke chain, electric collar nor pronge collar be accepted. of course
in all training methods and tools there can be a flaw, especially in
the wrong hands.
i will not stand to see a dog hurt nor abused. i am very sorry to say
but i once knew of a 'trainer' who was happy to see choke chains used
and as you said there is a very wrong way to use them and this man
chose the wrong way. he would let the dogs get ahead and then yank them
back.
this man was introduced to a male lab (entire) with the 'problem' of
jumping up on everyone he met. the 'trainer' after yanking the dog
about for a bit ~ which served to over excite the dog. said "i can cure
him of this" and kicked the dog hard in the goolies,leaving the dog
screaming on the floor.
now please dont assume that i think anyone who uses choke chains are
capable of this but in the case of the op who didnt know how to
assemble her choke chain let alone use it i see a great danger of
whether she knows it or not her dog may well suffer at her hands.
i am a great fan of an author who names such trainers as being 'from
the dark side' and i must say i quite agree. you can not say this is
something i know nothing about, i have read and read and studied hard,
i already have a clear view on my favoured methods and a choke chain
would never be one of them.
Jeff Dege
> Melinda Shore wrote:
>> In article <ds307n$jm6$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> Alison <ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>You don't have to use a choke chain to train your dog.
>>>Using positive methods is effective and enjoyable for you
>>>and your dog.
>>
>>
>> Strictly speaking you don't *have* to train your dog at all.
>> But I'd definitely learn to use a choke chain well before
>> I'd consider using a head halter. Any device that uses the
>> dog's neck and head as a lever and its shoulders as a
>> fulcrum is completely off the table, as far as I'm
>> concerned. I also believe that the device is so intrusive
>> that it makes a poor training gizmo. Why do you think it's
>> a "positive" training tool? It seems to me that it's
>> exceptionally punishing when a correction happens.
>
> Agreed. I hate them.
Most significantly, my Dog hates them.
--
"I quite agree with you," said the Duchess; "and the moral of that is --
'Be what you would seem to be' -- or, if you'd like it put more simply --
'Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear
to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than
what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.'"
-- Lewis Carrol, "Alice in Wonderland"
Jeff Dege
>
> in no training class i ever hold or one to one training session would a
> choke chain, electric collar nor pronge collar be accepted. of course
> in all training methods and tools there can be a flaw, especially in
> the wrong hands.
And what, exactly, do you tell the owners of dogs who have not responded
to purely positive methods?
--
The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being
only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to
duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community
welfare and existence.
-Sir Robert Peel.
diddy
news:pan.2006.02.05....@jdege.visi.com:
> And what, exactly, do you tell the owners of dogs who have not
responded
> to purely positive methods?
>
Try another trainer. Any trainer that reduces their toolbox to only a
limited measure of tools is doing their clients and dogs a disfavor. The
goal is to achieve results in the most positive method possible, but
increase levels of induced training until the desired levels are
achieved. Positive only methods are really effective in puppies, but
eventually a percentage of dogs, even though thoroughly conditioned in
ppp methods, will eventually test their boundaries, and that method ONLY
fails.
When they test those boundaries, trainers who fail to follow up, blame
the owner, instead of the method that naturally failed when the dog
eventually and inevitably tested the limits.
Alison
news:ds4no3$7kl$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
So have I and it was discussed at the time. I'm still
waiting for Marks info about dog diets.
Alison
Jeff Dege
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 09:04:41 -0600, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
>
> []
>>> Agreed. I hate them.
>>
>>Most significantly, my Dog hates them.
>
> Jeff, I'd be willing to bet you that he wouldn't hate them if *I* were
> his trainer.
>
> I've trained dogs for well over four decades now, and I've yet to find
> one dog that hated my choke collar.
I didn't say my dog hated the choke collar. He ignored the choke collar
entirely.
He hated the Gentle Leader.
--
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron -- more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to humankind.
-- Mirelle Stein, _The Productive Class
Alison
>
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> > On 4 Feb 2006 02:56:50 -0800, "dallygirl"
<kwic...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>> how dare you. you accuss me of taking cheap shots and
then call me a
> bimbo? oh please!>>
HJM used to be known as Dogman, quite a few people have him
in their killfile.
Alison
Alison
"Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.02.05....@jdege.visi.com...
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 06:58:28 -0800, dallygirl wrote:
>
> >> And what, exactly, do you tell the owners of dogs who
have not responded
> to purely positive methods?>>>
Why do you assume that a person who doesn't use chokes,
shocks etc is PP?
Alison
Alison
news:ds31ov$lae$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>>
> Strictly speaking you don't *have* to train your dog at
all.>>
Imagine the chaos!
> But I'd definitely learn to use a choke chain well before
> I'd consider using a head halter. Any device that uses
the
> dog's neck and head as a lever and its shoulders as a
> fulcrum is completely off the table, as far as I'm
> concerned. I also believe that the device is so intrusive
> that it makes a poor training gizmo. Why do you think
it's
> a "positive" training tool? It seems to me that it's
> exceptionally punishing when a correction happens.>>>
The two books that I recommended don't use haltis to train
dogs.
Alison
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
> i have read and read and studied hard,
>i already have a clear view on my favoured methods and a choke chain
>would never be one of them.
but have you actually ever used one or seen it used by someone using
it properly (any of your "tools of horror")?
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>
>
>How could he hate anything with the word "Gentle" in its name? ;)
Had an aussie pup come to puppy class for the second time yesterday.
First time was with male owner, this time with female owner. Dog
arrives with female owner with a head collar. Dog is unhappy. Owner
asks if she can talk to me (class check-in is in progress, handled by
my assistants) and i say sure. Walk over and the first thing I said
was "I don't like those, now what's your question?" She wanted to
know if it was fitted properly. "Well - it's fitted tightly because
otherwise your puppy is trying like hell to get it off. OTOH, let's
take it off and look at the welts on his nose".
We put a small link prong on him instead. Instantly, the dog is
happy, not pulling and has a hope of his face looking normal again.
"My vet said you wouldn't like the headcollar, but that's what she
recommended". Maybe so she can make money on injury visits......
Diana
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>
wrote in message news:vedcu1hma3hu93vlf...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:39:22 GMT, Robin Nuttall <rob...@mchsi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
[..]>
> You're not much better than Diana, Robin. Diana is a bimbo who
> doesn't know any better.
>
Nah, I would never lower myself to making such personal comments.
Diana
John Wesley
handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net says...
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:24:35 -0000, "Diana"
> <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
> []
> >> You're not much better than Diana, Robin. Diana is a bimbo who
> >> doesn't know any better.
> >>
> >
> >Nah, I would never lower myself to making such personal comments.
>
> because you've already reached rock bottom.
>
> <spit>
>
> You've already implied that everyone here who chooses to train with a
> choke or prong collar (which is the majority of us here)
NOT ME!!
> are cruel
> barbarians, so I have absolutely no hesitation in calling you an
> ignorant bimbo.
>
>
>
You're nothing but a jerk and a bully. I'd like to put a prong collar
on you and drag you around.
Into the filter you go!
PLONK!
jw
PS - I bet there is nothing handsome about you!
Jeff Dege
No one in the world is a purely positive trainer. To use only positive
methods is a logical impossibility.
But most of the people I've met who reject all aversive training devices
are operating under the delusion that they can train a dog using only
positive methods.
--
The aims of all governments, whatever their names or forms, are precisely
the same, at all times and everywhere. The first and foremost of them is
simply to maintain the men constituting the government in their positions
of power, that they may live gloriously at the expense of the people
they govern, and enjoy all the honors and usufructs that go therewith.
There may be other purposes in them from time to time, but those purposes
are transient, and most of them are insincere...The natural tendency
of every government is to grow steadily worse - that is, to grow more
satisfactory to those who constitute it and less satisfactory to those
who support it.
- H. L. Mencken
dallygirl
ok i will make a start here.. 'plonk' is that when your killfiling
someone? you type plonk? i did wonder when i first saw it but then
thats when i thought there was some sort of secret club or something
going on, i thought jesus they talk in code!! :D ok that WAS me being
bimbo-esq lol.
alison, thankyou so much about your dogman post.
janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
qualifications only their own experience. its because of them i am
busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.
i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
'trainers' said. i guess i was as distressed as my dog. i have ppl come
to me with things that have happened there and they go about everything
backwards.
have any of you seen the advert (banking) that says 'there has to be a
better way'? thats what i think. i took a dog out of this real nasty
hell hole. the lady had set her self up as a rescue then had about 20
dogs running free in her back garden and it broke down to chaos.
i took out a young lab female who was so scared she wouldnt climb into
my car and i wasnt going to force her so i just sat next to her but on
my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman growled and grabbed the dog at the
back of the neck and a lump of flesh at the rump and threw her into my
car.
with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.
the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke prong
or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.
ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
kick my arse..............i am braced :)
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
>training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
>learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
>qualifications only their own experience.
What exactly does that mean?
>its because of them i am
>busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.
"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority. The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that. There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.
>i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
>lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
>'trainers' said.
What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior? Do you not use a lead when training? Not on city streets?
> i guess i was as distressed as my dog.
I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.
>. i took a dog out of this real nasty
>hell hole. the lady had set her self up as a rescue then had about 20
>dogs running free in her back garden and it broke down to chaos.
>i took out a young lab female who was so scared she wouldnt climb into
>my car and i wasnt going to force her so i just sat next to her but on
>my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman growled and grabbed the dog at the
>back of the neck and a lump of flesh at the rump and threw her into my
>car.
What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools? So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.
>with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
>i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
>'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.
When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door, what "nicer way" do
you employ?
>the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke prong
>or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.
My neck is very different from a dog's neck. I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly. As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.
>ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
>kick my arse..............i am braced :)
Nope - don't believe in kicking. But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs. I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.
Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week. I'm sure
you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:38:08 -0500, Janet B
><ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>
>[]
>>Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
>
>Oh no!
>
>You barbarian!
I know - it's really mean of me to want to give him activities and
freedoms that will enhance his life. He's been with me 7 weeks,
today. I'm hoping that DH just accepts that he doesn't seem to be
going anywhere!
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>
>IMO, people who are easily distressed should find something else to do
>than train dogs.
very true. they wince, they can lose an arm. But I'm guessing they
would never even attempt to work with a dog with real issues.
Janet B
>
>I think after 7 weeks it's against Maryland law to return him, eh?
my friends at the spca told me that there's a 4 week common-law
puppy-ownership law ;-D
>I just knew this was going to happen.
>
>Because you're such a mean, cruel person!
yep - I won't let him go to a clueless home, or one where nobody is
home all day, or without a canine companion - the list goes on. I've
narrowed the potential owner field pretty dramatically.
Janet B
>
>
>It now appears that you've narrowed it down to one, huh? :)
officially, we're still waiting for the [2nd] perfect home to come
along......
White Monkey
>>I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
>>transmitted that to your dog.
> IMO, people who are easily distressed should find something else to do
> than train dogs.
> Like raise orchids, for example.
> Handsome Jack Morrison
Oh, no, no, no. The condition the last place we lived put these Phal.'s in
is deplorable, I'm really distressed about it. Their roots are drying now
after I clipped out the damage and I'll be repotting tomorrow in hopes
they'll live here where we have light and air and central heating.... I
still get upset thinking about that darling Oncydium twinkle,
salmon-colored, that didn't make it. Luckily the Calumnara wildcat, the one
I'd slated as most likely to keel over, has suddenly blessed me with blooms
( http://www.xs4all.nl/~cooper17/katrina/Misc/Wildcat.jpg ), but now someone
gave me a Cymbidum for my birthday and I'll be a nervous wreck until I'm
sure it'll do OK. And the Dendrobiums need some tender care, as well. Not to
mention the two Paph.'s. No, sensitive people like me should NOT raise
orchids--but it's too late for me!
--Katrina
Mary Healey
> If a dog doesnt like a halti , there's always a harness.
Heh. I've never used a harness, except as a car restraint (the dog's
restrained, not the vehicle!). Whatever you use, the vital bit is teaching
the dog to give to pressure. Once that's well ingrained, it doesn't much
matter what you use.
Melinda Shore
Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>Heh. I've never used a harness, except as a car restraint (the dog's
>restrained, not the vehicle!).
I use harnesses all the time. By distributing the load
around the dog's body and by moving the center of force back
they allow a dog that wants to pull to pull as hard as he
wants. And the better the harness fits, the harder and
faster the dog can pull.
I like harnesses!
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.
Janet B
their heels and said:
> And the better the harness fits, the harder and
>faster the dog can pull.
>
>I like harnesses!
me too - same reason I use them for flyball. The force a dog can pull
against them with can be pretty amazing, and when released, the dogs
do fly!
Mary Healey
re: <chain collars>
> It's a tool I have chosen to discard from my toolbox, and a tool we
> don't allow in our classes. We haven't missed it. And our students? I
> dunno, probably titles well in the 100s by now
I teach more "survival obedience" (aka, "pet manners" or "I'm gonna KILL
this dog if he doesn't kill me first!" obedience) and, while we still
offer training collars to students, I don't insist on or even recommend
them. People tend to be more willing to use the tools that they're
comfortable with, and as long as their dogs are under some semblance of
control I don't interfere.
Most of the time, people prefer to use the dog's buckle collar to train,
and that's fine. Sometimes they use training collars, sometimes pinch
collars. Sometimes Haltis. Some start with harnesses, but move pretty
quickly to something else. Nobody's come in with an e-collar, but I'll
probably see that, too, before I die. My only requirement is that they
use their collar of choice appropriately, and that they consider any
suggested change in hardware I'm moved to make.
Our class sessions are 7 weeks long, and I usually use Ranger to
demonstrate the exercises. I use different collars on him each week,
partly to demonstrate what's available and partly to demonstrate that,
once the dog is trained, the hardware makes little difference to the
dog. If it wasn't for his ingrained desire to "help" control the class,
I'd put a pretty pink ribbon around his neck and let the shame of it
subdue him.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>Most of the time, people prefer to use the dog's buckle collar to train,
>and that's fine.
I won't allow most dogs to work on a buckle collar. I won't allow any
dog to work with a leash attached to their ID collar. Using a buckle
collar must be a true buckle, not a snap collar, as those can pop
open.
Most of my classes are outdoors, and I want to ensure that the dogs
don't get loose, especially without ID.
If the collar isn't working for the person and it endangers the other
dogs or people in class, they will not be allowed to use that tool in
class. Basically, if the collar the owner chooses causes or allows
the dog to interfere with the other students in anyway, it's clearly
not effective and I won't allow it. If the dog is clearly distressed
by the tool, I won't allow it. That means it's very, very rare for me
to allow a head collar in class.
Mary Healey
> Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>Heh. I've never used a harness, except as a car restraint (the dog's
>>restrained, not the vehicle!).
>
> faster the dog can pull.
>
> I like harnesses!
But, but, but ... you *want* your dogs to pull! Personally, I don't care
if my dogs pull. They can pull all they like, as long as I'm not BEING
PULLED.
Should I ever want to "spring-load" a dog, though, maybe I'll use a
harness...
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>>>Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
>>
>>Oh no!
>>
>>You barbarian!
>
> I know - it's really mean of me to want to give him
> activities and freedoms that will enhance his life. He's
> been with me 7 weeks, today. I'm hoping that DH just
> accepts that he doesn't seem to be going anywhere!
I'm not sure whether I've mentioned a particular chocolate
Labrador Retriever. She had absolutely no respect for her
owner, to the point that the dog couldn't be allowed off leash
anywhere. Traditional "socially-acceptable" training methods
were tried over a period of close to two years.
After a carefully run e-collar program supervised by a friend,
this dog now understands her boundries, and has a quality of
life that, at one point, I didn't think I'd ever see. The
coolest part of the e-collar introduction was the instructor
using it on the handler.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Mary Healey
> Most of my classes are outdoors, and I want to ensure that the dogs
> don't get loose, especially without ID.
Good point. All our classes are indoors, and there's a half-wall between
the working space and the exit. Escapes are rare, and have never gotten as
far as the outdoors, as far as I know.
> If the collar isn't working for the person and it endangers the other
> dogs or people in class, they will not be allowed to use that tool in
> class.
Well, yeah. When students ask about collars, and on the first night of
class, I tell 'em to bring whatever they feel comfortable using that will
keep their dog from interfering with others. I also tell them that I (or
another instructor) may suggest hardware changes if what they're using
isn't getting the job done.
So far, I've gotten cooperation from nothing stronger than a suggested
change of tack.
>If the dog is clearly distressed by the tool, I won't allow it.
Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier to ban than others.
Janet B
heels and said:
>The
>coolest part of the e-collar introduction was the instructor
>using it on the handler.
mandatory - every owner should feel it for themselves before it ever
goes on the dog.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I always have to
remind spouses that they may NOT do the "honey - you're supposed to be
doing it like THIS"......
Mary Healey
> yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I always have to
> remind spouses that they may NOT do the "honey - you're supposed to be
> doing it like THIS"......
difficult to "demonstrate" the effects of tone of voice. Noah was a much
better subject for that, when used with care. I'd growl, "GOOD DOG.
EXCELLENT DOG!" and his little ears would go all flat. Then I'd croon,
"Eeeeevil doggie. What a horrid, rotten, nastybad, AWFUL dog you are!" and
he'd perk up and his tail would start making those silly slow circles.
Of course, he was also highly suspicious of being "overpraised", the silly
bugger.
I used to do a verbal demo with Sam that made good use of a major, MAJOR
mistake I made with him. The "guilty dog" myth. I'd point to a bare spot
on the floor and ask, in a normal conversational tone, "Did you do that?"
Poor Sam would just about turn himself inside-out in "apology". I've found
that demonstrations like that make a bigger impact than words alone.
Of course, you couldn't pull that response out of Ranger with a come-along,
and I'm far too lazy to train him to do it just for that demonstration.
Melinda Shore
Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>Ranger is mostly impervious to tone. He reads posture, so it's very very
>difficult to "demonstrate" the effects of tone of voice.
Emmett won't release if I'm slouching. It took me awhile to
figure out why he'd just sit there looking hungry and
unhappy when I gave him his "okay" to eat. It's a good
reminder to me to think about my posture, but, you know,
stupid dogs. I have a vague idea how this came about but
I'm not really sure.
Mary Healey
wrote in news:5a7fu1ps7ednal5b5...@4ax.com:
> On 6 Feb 2006 17:03:43 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
>>Nobody's come in with an e-collar, but I'll
>>probably see that, too, before I die.
>
> Hopefully not, because that would probably mean that someone bought
> one without knowing much about it.
Or they're not taking the class to be taught the basics. We also get
more experienced owners/trainers who're looking for the distractions
provided by a classful of dogs. None of 'em with e-collars, so far, but
with Mr. Hassen's work it certainly seems possible that someone might
want to give it a go.
> And I'd hope that you'd turn them
> away. Better yet, aim them in the right direction.
The general vicinity being anyone with a bigger e-collar clue than I
have? That's a lot of territory; the poor student/projectile might get
lost in all that vastness.
> One of your classes (with all due respect!) almost certainly isn't the
> place to learn how to use one correctly.
Since I wouldn't even pretend to know how to use one correctly, I'd
certainly suggest that anyone wanting to use an e-collar find a far more
experienced instructor. Should the situation arise, may I direct their
quest in your direction?
Alison
news:1139217556....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and
daughter duo
> training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i
have since
> learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they
have no
> qualifications only their own experience. its because of
them i am
> busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.>>>
Good for you. Will you be doing a dog behaviour course too?
One of the reasons I decided to do a cat behaviour course
was because of
the standard "use a water pistol" advice? euw!
Even if you don't approve of certain methods/tools, you
still should understand how
they work and how they are applied. I would think dealing
with the owners is the hardest part! Taking part in this
thread will be good practise for the future as you will very
likely meet dog owners and trainers who have similar
thoughts and behaviours to some people here.
Alison
Alison
news:pan.2006.02.06...@jdege.visi.com...
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:57:26 +0000, Alison wrote:
>
>> No one in the world is a purely positive trainer. To use
only positive
> methods is a logical impossibility.>>
It would make life harder to try to do that. I do find it
annoying when people accuse others of being PP with out
really knowing them.
> But most of the people I've met who reject all aversive
training devices
> are operating under the delusion that they can train a dog
using only
> positive methods.>>>
What sort of people do you mean , trainers or people in
real wanting to train their dogs ?
Alison
Jeff Dege
> "Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.02.06...@jdege.visi.com...
>
>> But most of the people I've met who reject all aversive training devices
>> are operating under the delusion that they can train a dog using only
>> positive methods.>>>
>
> What sort of people do you mean , trainers or people in
> real wanting to train their dogs ?
The worst tend to be the sorts who end up running the local volunteer
obedience clubs.
--
Posterity! You will never know, how much it cost the present Generation,
to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make a good Use of it. If you
do not, I shall repent in Heaven, that I ever took half the Pains to
preserve it.
- John Adams
Robin Nuttall
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:39:22 GMT, Robin Nuttall <rob...@mchsi.com>
>
> So why the fuck is it necessary for you to even indirectly take a
> cheap shot at choke collars?
Because I truly, honestly, believe that in the hands of most people, the
choke collar is by far the most abused collar out there. I don't have a
thing against you using it however you like--you know what you're doing.
99.9% of JQP ain't got a clue, and since it can tighten with no check or
stop, I feel it is the poorest choice for a new dog owner or trainer.
Sionnach
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
People such as that are completely irrelevant to the subject of proper use
of training collars.
> i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
> 'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.
If you refer to them as "tools of horror" in any context, you're being
ridiculous.
>
> the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke prong
> or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.
First off, a dog's neck and a human's neck are quite different. Second, I
have tested both prongs and e-collars on myself, and guess what? I kept on
using them for training.
In fact, when I was using an e-collar, I tested it on myself first every
single time I put it on the dog - it's not at all painful or unpleasant.
OTOH, the so-called "humane" head halters was considered a "tool of horror"
by my DOG - I'll take her word over any human's, any day.